The Theranos whistleblower says Nathan Fielder's Elizabeth Holmes film "was in pursuit of ambiguity" – and that Holmes knows exactly what she's doing.

Tyler Shultz met Elizabeth Holmes at Stanford, worked under her at Theranos, and helped expose the blood-testing fraud that sent her to prison. Now Holmes is everywhere again: a new startup, magazine covers, and a starring turn in Nathan Fielder's "You Can See Everything."

Sitting in for Emily Dreyfuss, Theo Baker talks with Shultz about why he calls the film a masterpiece but not a documentary, how Holmes wins people over, the parallels he sees between partner Billy Evans and Sunny Balwani, and why the patients Theranos hurt keep getting lost in the story. They also dig into what the AI funding boom means for the next Theranos, why AI whistleblowers face overbearing NDAs, and why Shultz is seeing a backlash against himself online for the first time.

Chapters:

0:00 Why is everyone talking about Elizabeth Holmes again?

1:12 How Tyler Shultz exposed Theranos

2:41 Holmes' comeback: a new company, magazine covers, early release

4:36 Life as an "accidental whistleblower"

6:38 Tyler's take on the Nathan Fielder film

8:41 How Elizabeth Holmes convinces people

11:59 Billy Evans, Sunny Balwani and outsourced ruthlessness

14:17 Stanford dropouts, AI money and the next Theranos

16:10 Were Theranos investors victims or enablers?

16:25 Why the internet is turning on the whistleblower

18:39 "She wants us to be talking about her"

19:32 The patients Theranos hurt

20:54 A culture of fear and complicity

22:15 AI whistleblowers and overbearing NDAs

24:15 Tyler's life after Theranos

25:14 Would Theranos play out the same way today?

26:31 Retiring the "Theranos whistleblower" label

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Produced by Eddie Sun and Xorje Olivares. Edited by Sophie Bearman. Mixing by Michelle Lanz. Video by Morgan Ellis. Art by Jess Hutchinson. Music by Bear Attack and Carly Bond. Hosted by Emily Dreyfuss.